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JAIME TEEVAN: Hi, I’m Jaime Teevan, chief scientist and technical fellow at Microsoft, and today, we’re going to talk about the new future of work. 

So back in 2020, researchers from across Microsoft came together to try to make sense of this seismic shift in work practices that was happening as a result of the pandemic, and the next year, the group published the very first New Future of Work report. Microsoft has been publishing a new report every year since with no shortages of disruptions and major technological shifts in between. 

Joining me today to explore the latest report are my colleagues, Jenna Butler, Jake Hofman, and Rebecca Janssen, who are a few of the many authors on the report. 

Jenna, Jake, Rebecca, welcome to the podcast. 

REBECCA JANSSEN: Thanks, Jaime. 

JAKE HOFMAN: Thanks, Jaime. 

JENNA BUTLER: Thank you. 

TEEVAN: There are a lot of factors that shape the work people do and how they do it, from social factors to economic factors to technological factors. And, you know, as we’ve learned from the previous reports that we’ve written together, accounting for this complexity requires a lot of different backgrounds, knowledge bases, approaches, and research methodologies. 

So before we get into the specifics of the report, I’d love it if each of you could share a little bit about the experience and expertise that you bring to the contributions you made to the report and why the work you do matters. Jenna, why don’t you get us started? 

BUTLER: Sure, yeah, thank you, Jaime. 

So I’ve been on the report since it started in 2020, and I’m really proud of the work that we do. I think it matters for a number of reasons, but most importantly, I think, especially right now, people feel like technology is sort of happening to them and these changes are happening to them. And actually, with any technology we introduce to society, that’s a sociotechnical shift. And so how people perceive it, use it, what they want to do with it, what they’re willing to pay for—all these things matter. And so the report, I think, gives some agency to people to let them know, like, what’s happening right now, what’s the latest research, and also how are your own behaviors and views shaping the technology. 

And when it comes to expertise, I study software engineering productivity and right now very specifically how AI impacts or changes that. But my background is actually originally in bioinformatics studying cancer. And I’ve always loved multidisciplinary fields because I feel like with the type of problems we have in today’s world, the solutions often lie at the interface of multiple disciplines. And so this report with over, you know, 50 different authors from all over the world, I think, is a really fun example of just how much great stuff you can get when you bring different people like that together. 

TEEVAN: Thanks, Jenna. How about you, Jake? 

HOFMAN: Yeah, so I’ve been involved with the report since 2023, so less time than Jenna, but as an author originally on bits related to AI and cognition, which is a core research topic for our Microsoft Research New York City lab. And more recently, I’ve co-led a workstream across the whole company called Thinking and Learning with AI, or TALA for short, with Richard Banks, another researcher. 

And so Jenna and Rebecca and company, who really drive and lead the report, were kind enough to invite me to be a section editor this year. And I gladly accepted because I know how widely read and impactful the report is. And I think it’s just a wonderful opportunity to showcase research not only from Microsoft but from all around, from a coherent viewpoint and voice. 

TEEVAN: Thanks, Jake, and Rebecca? 

JANSSEN: Yeah, and we were really glad to have you join us as section editor, Jake, just to say that. 

Yes, so I joined Microsoft full time in October 2024, so, kind of, like the new joiner among the three of us. And already during my PhD, I was interested in, like, AI and its impacts on work and society, in particular from the economics perspective. So I was always really excited about that group’s work and was, yeah, just, like, really looking forward to leaning in not only on the economics perspective and those sections but also, like, more broadly with, like, editing the report overall. 

And to the point of, like, why it matters, I think what is so exciting about the report is the variety of, like, different people, different backgrounds, and different topics. And there’s, like, so much you can talk about, speak about, but also realize, oh, AI is impacting work but also, like, so many different other parts of life. 

TEEVAN: Rebecca, I love your story, too, about how you had been reading the report from outside of Microsoft and then got to come in to engage. I know there were a number of people involved this year who said that. It, kind of, was cool, like, to feel it become something of an institution. 

JANSSEN: Yeah, yeah, exactly. 

TEEVAN: Yeah, no, super cool. But for listeners who are new to the New Future of Work Report, can you share a little about what it is, who it’s for, what people can use it for? 

BUTLER: Yeah, I can take that one. So obviously I’m biased—I think it’s for everyone. But perhaps it’s not. But the idea is to, sort of, showcase the research that’s been happening over the last year. So we release it annually, usually in December, on these big shifts that have been happening, and so the last couple of years, AI has been a big part of it. And the idea is to take research not just from Microsoft but from external places, as well, all around the world, and try and, sort of, sum it up in small statements that we can back up with research. And we are very careful to make sure we’re only doing this in areas where we have a researcher and we can make a pretty bold claim and where we feel confident in the data and that it backs up what we’re saying. 

And so if you just want to read one, albeit somewhat long, report, you’ll get an idea of what’s happening in the world of AI and work fairly broadly. So from the economy to adoption, to thinking and learning, to specific industries and what leading experts outside the company are thinking and predicting, as well. So it should be broadly accessible to any sort of academic audience. You don’t need to be an AI expert to read it. And hopefully, it’ll help with all different areas. 

TEEVAN: You know, one of the things that jumped out to me, Jenna, sort of reflecting on the past five years—this is our fifth report—so on the past … over the ones we’ve done is every time when we go to release it, it’s like, “Oh my gosh, work has changed. It will never be the same again.” [LAUGHTER] I was actually, like, reading the past introductions to the report. 

In 2021, during, you know, thinking about the pandemic, I was like, “Work will never again be the same!” In 2022, as we were shifting to hybrid work, I said, “Work is changing faster than it has in a generation.” 2023—we’ve been living through not one but two generational shifts in how we work. And then, you know, more recently, obviously, we’ve been talking a lot about the transformative impact on AI and productivity. 

And one thing that was fun about doing this report was sort of looking at these what felt like different shifts over time and, like, being able to see the through threads and the connections. Because really what we’ve been living through, it’s not that, like, every year work is changing in a generational manner. It’s much more that we are in the middle of a really big shift in sort of how digital technology can support people getting things done. 

And I’d be curious about what changes in attitudes and understanding of AI and work you all have witnessed in these past five years across industry and academia and even, like, on an individual level, like how it’s changed for you personally. 

HOFMAN: I can kick us off with that maybe. I think it’s pretty amazing, like, in the last three years, to think about just how much in the research world has changed on generative AI and work. 

You know, like, I remember, like, January 2023, you know, people were just off to the races. Everyone was doing everything they could to just evaluate a model in isolation because that’s what people had access to. But there was very little in terms of, like, humans in the loop and people evaluating what happens when it’s not just a model taking a standardized test or a benchmark. And so that was something that we immediately focused on because it really hit our expertise in the lab here. And, you know, there were others, but it was still, kind of, limited in terms of who had access to the models and who had the capability to, like, design and run experiments that involved, you know, real people, right. And even then, it was, kind of, limited to laboratory experiments, right. 

And now, you know, fast-forward three years, and we have pretty much everyone has access to any model they want to. They have amazing tools to build and design experiments, and they can run them in the field, right. And I think there’s also been a shift from, OK, how much does this tool speed us up to what are the bigger, broader effects— which is all the exciting stuff, I think, for thinking and learning in particular—that these tools have beyond just efficiency. 

So I think it’s just amazing. In no other time have you seen this leap from, you know, a three-year period from like a few people doing small lab studies to like lots of people doing field experiments with, you know, wide-reaching implications. 

TEEVAN: Yeah. Rebecca or Jenna, have you observed in your own work practices, sort of, Jake’s talking about how his research is changing. Have you been observing things like that, as well? 

JANSSEN: Yeah, definitely. I would say it’s just so interesting to see how these tools can help you. I mean, when I started or, like, I finished my PhD kind of like throughout this wave of, like, AI really picking up and just, like, even in this short time seeing, “Oh, where does it help me? Where does it not help me that much?” But also the stress of it: “Oh, where do I want to stay involved?” And I think that’s still, like, an ongoing progress or process, at least for me, to figure this out. And I think that’s also what I hear from other people, that they’re, like, experimenting a lot, playing around with this and figuring out, OK, where does it actually change things and change workflows on the broader level. 

BUTLER: Yeah, I think, Rebecca, to that point of, like, where does it help me or where does it not, something that has struck me over the last five years of the report is how nuanced it is and how we anticipated certain things and it wasn’t necessarily like that. 

Like when we all went remote, we thought, oh, people will be lonely. And there were studies looking at this, and it was like, wait, some people are really thriving. What’s that about? And then hybrid work, like, we don’t all need to go back or we need to go back sometimes. 

And then with AI: “This incredible tool—everyone’s going to benefit.” And then we saw, oh, there’s so many factors as to who benefits and how they benefit, and whether they believe it’s going to be useful even impacts it and what kind of tasks they’re doing and what their problem-solving style is. So I think the uniqueness of all of this and how each worker is different and there was no single answer has been really fun to see and watch, as well—and tricky but keeps us employed. 

TEEVAN: Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, so I like this thinking about the different ways that people … like, even just listening to the three of you and seeing the variation in the ways that you’re thinking about your work practices changing, adoption clearly matters a lot, and I know that’s something that we center in [on in] the report. 

Jake, you talked about how everybody has access to models. But not everybody is actually using the models and we’re certainly not using them in the same way. 

I was wondering if you could tell us a little bit about what the report says about today’s level of adoption and like who’s using it and how. 

JANSSEN: So what we see in the research—and this is mainly based on, like, surveys being conducted in different countries and then, of course, also some more, like, field experiment studies—what we see is that AI adoption is definitely increasing overall, but it’s really heterogeneous and more nuanced in depth, like who is using it and also, like, for which purposes. 

So a German survey found that about, like, 38% of the respondents were using AI for work (opens in new tab). But this is just, like, the average. And we do see, like, lots of differences across, like, industries. 

So there were other surveys where the results showed that IT and procurement were example industries or, like, sectors which were more open to use AI than maybe marketing or operations (opens in new tab). 

There also has been some evidence on men being more open to using it than women (opens in new tab). I don’t know how the gap looks, like, right now. I hope this is, like, converging even more. But this is maybe, like, on the high level, like, about AI adoption levels. 

And for the question of, like, what people use this for, there are now more studies also, like, using chat conversations to see, “Oh, what are actually, like, the user intents and goals.” And we have a group also within Microsoft who has done something similar, and they found that information retrieving but also communicating has been or have been among the top user intents. There’s definitely a lot of, like, writing related or there are a lot of writing-related tasks that are conducted with chat tools, and I think that’s, like, the big picture we see. 

But maybe even there, I think, it also depends a lot on which AI tool people are using. So maybe Anthropic’s work sometimes shows more, a heavier weight on, like, coding and developer use cases. So there’s definitely, like, some variety. 

TEEVAN: And, Jake, I know you’ve done a lot of studying in the education context, as well. Can you share a little about that? 

HOFMAN: Yeah, I mean, the report, I think, gives really definitive numbers in this regard in that recent surveys show that, like, 80% of students, sorry, 80% of [K-12] teachers and 90% of [K-12] students report having used, you know, generative AI for schoolwork (opens in new tab), you know, with use growing year over year, right. 

What’s interesting is that, you know, there are, like, myriad educational, like, tools and specific versions of generative AI products and all these startups, and yet almost all of the reporting shows that people are using the generic off-the-shelf Copilot, ChatGPT, Claude, Gemini, and so on (opens in new tab) not necessarily even in like a learn mode, right, and so I think this speaks to, like, the bigger sort of policy and training gap that’s out there in terms of the fact that everyone is using these tools, but there’s not amazing guidance for how to use them constructively. 

The good news there, I think, is that we’ve seen, like, big efforts this year. So with the American Federation of Teachers in partnership with Microsoft and OpenAI and Anthropic, there’s actually a big program to try to re-skill teachers and give them the training to use this technology appropriately (opens in new tab). So I think there’s a lot of hope there, but I think it’s also really something we should keep our eye on in terms of making sure that we’re using these tools in the right way. 

TEEVAN: Yeah, and one of the challenges is that the tools are changing so fast. Like, it’s very hard to provide any guidance … 

HOFMAN: For sure, yeah. 

TEEVAN: … when it’s going to be different tomorrow. Yeah, I find that, too. 

Like, people are always asking me, they’re like, “Ooh, what surprises you most about how people are using AI?” And it’s funny because almost as soon as something surprises me, like a week later, everybody’s like, “That’s obvious” because things are changing so fast. 

But I’m going to turn that question on to all three of you, and I would like you each to answer this. I’m curious what you have found particularly surprising about how people and organizations are leveraging AI right now. Maybe, Jenna, you want to kick us off? 

BUTLER: Sure, yeah. I do a lot of studies looking at how organizational behavior is changing with AI, and something that is somewhat surprising but I think might really surprise others is just how much influence individual people have on the adoption of these technologies. 

So lots of studies have shown that how individuals talk about it with their colleagues will change whether they’re willing to use it or what tasks they use it for (opens in new tab) and how leadership demonstrates and discusses these tools will impact whether their people feel like they can use them (opens in new tab). 

And so while we did just give everyone like, “Hey, here’s access to these absolutely incredible tools,” as you said, Jaime, we didn’t exactly have a guidebook for these people because they’re changing all the time. And so a lot of the best use cases have just been figured out by people using them and sharing that sort of from a ground-up point of view. And so I feel like it’s been a technology where individuals have had a lot of opportunity to help shape how it’s used and how it’s spread through an organization. 

HOFMAN: Yeah. You know, I think it’s not … like, the bottom up is super cool, as you mentioned, Jenna, but also the fact that, like, how much experimentation people are doing and how creative people are getting with these tools, I think, is just been itself really surprising to me. 

I think, you know, it’s sort of this thing that builds on itself because, you know, there used to be kind of a high barrier from translating an idea … like, if you had some boring, repetitive thing that you did at work and you wanted to automate it, right, you probably needed to know how to code and needed to know how to do a bunch of obscure things to, like, make that real and then share it with other people, right? And now, that barrier is much lower, and so you see all the creative ideas and the democratization of that happening and then people sharing it really quickly and easily with their colleagues and then all of a sudden, everyone is like, “Did you hear what so-and-so did? I’m going to start doing that,” right? 

On the other hand, I think it is a little bit terrifying just how fast the experimentation is going and sometimes how reckless people are, right, especially with some of the agentic stuff where people give, like, all permissions to their agents and they let them go do all kinds of crazy things. And sometimes, that leads to interesting outcomes and sometimes undesirable outcomes. So I think it’s been exciting to see things change so fast, but I hope we can find, like, a good balance of move fast and hopefully not break things. [LAUGHS] 

JANSSEN: Yeah, definitely agree on, like, their experimentation part there, Jake. 

I think for me, what is especially surprising but also fascinating was the learning about the new ways of interacting with these tools. So we talked about, a lot about, like, multimodal models. So, like, OK, you can generate text, you can generate videos, but also like the way of interacting with AI. 

So throughout the report, I learned also about some user research which is looking at like, we are so used to using text-based artifacts, but maybe I want to emphasize something or, like, something speaks to me in particular and I find it important, so I double-click on this, and this way the tool then knows, oh, this is something I need to dive deeper into. So just, like, these new ways of interacting with them (opens in new tab), with the tools, I think, is something really, really encouraging because it also speaks to the fact that individuals are just really different and everyone has their own needs or preferences and some of the tools can help just meeting the different preferences there. 

TEEVAN: So we’ve been talking a lot about adoption, and I want to switch now a little bit to talk about the impact that AI is actually having on how people get things done. And obviously impact is heavily mediated by adoption. 

Is there anything that we can say based on the adoption findings or anything else about what we actually know about the changes that AI is bringing about? 

BUTLER: Yeah, I think we’re seeing a lot of things. So while on the one hand, there’s still so much we don’t know, we are able to observe a lot as we go. 

We do see that a lot of tasks are able to be impacted by AI, and so when we think about it, we don’t necessarily think about whole jobs, like how the jobs are shifting as a single whole, but more like the tasks different people do are shifting over time. 

So specifically in the software engineering field, we’re already seeing that software engineers are spending a lot more time interacting with code in ways that feel fun for them, like the harder problems. They’re getting to think more; they’re getting to solve more problems and do less boilerplate or boring work to them. But then we also see that that’s driving some burnout or some cognitive overload where they feel like I only ever am doing the exciting hard problems, and my brain never gets a break from that. 

So this shift in how each job is doing tasks differently is something we’re really observing, and we see it a lot with white-collar workers and jobs that involve information (opens in new tab) and being on a computer. They have a lot of tasks that are amenable to this technology. 

TEEVAN: I love the concern about only ever doing the hard, interesting, exciting problems, because I totally feel it. Like, it’s real. It’s just funny, you know. [LAUGHS] 

BUTLER: Yeah. 

JANSSEN: Yeah, I can maybe add to some of the adoption, like, impact side, also, like, on the labor market or, like, what we see in those areas in the sections of the report. 

I think for first … for the first part, it’s we do have more insights now into, like, individual productivity effects. There have been, like, multiple studies, field experiments, lab experiments, or different, like, occupations where some groups are using AI, others do not, and how this impacts then their work. And what we usually see there is that people tend to be faster at completing tasks and also oftentimes lead to better outcomes (opens in new tab) or, like, complete … are able to provide better outcomes. 

That being said, there are also studies where this is not the case (opens in new tab) or which raise these issues or issues about overreliance and that people also need to make sure, like, to still be engaged and making sure, oh, is this actually a good task that AI can really help me with or am I just relying on the AI tool too much there? So there is some, like, jagged frontier (opens in new tab) of what AI can do and cannot do and, like, how people, yeah, how they interact with that. 

On the broader level, on the labor market side—that’s also something that we have emphasized in the report—we do not see large impacts or effects overall based on some labor market studies that are looking at both employment rates (opens in new tab) but also job postings (opens in new tab) and these kinds of things (opens in new tab). Maybe if you’re looking at specific, like, online labor platforms or just, like, the system or, like, the ecosystem is a little bit different, it might be different. But overall, I would say that the effects are still, like, modest. 

One subgroup where we have early insights now that they might be especially, like, impacted is the group of, like, early-career workers (opens in new tab) where maybe AI can do some of their tasks more easily than for later stages in their careers. But even there, I think we still need more time and evidence to say explicitly, “Oh, this is because of AI,” and not just, like, macroeconomic trends. 

TEEVAN: And when do you think we’re going to be able to, you know, start seeing that impact? Do you think it’s because the impact isn’t happening at that macro level, or do you think it’s just a kind of temporal thing? 

JANSSEN: I think it’s probably both. And I would also say that AI is a technology, but we are living in systems and we are living or working in organizations, and organizations will adopt in one way or the other. And I think we do need some more time but also, I think, time for people and organizations to really think about, “Oh, how do we want this to change our work settings?” 

TEEVAN: That’s great. Actually, I love … I think it’s fun for us to dive into, what do we want a little bit? You know, I think often we talk about things as sort of cut and dry or black and white. And, you know, where is the nuance in what’s happening and how can we start, you know, how can we lean into that to shape a future that we’re excited about? 

JANSSEN: So oftentimes, people say, “Oh, AI is having this impact or this effect.” And I think there was something that all the authors and also editors of the report were always like, “Well, it’s not that black and white.” 

So individual productivity effects might not equal group productivity effects because it’s just, like, really different to work on your own than working in the group. It’s also not “the more AI you use, the better,” or, like, more… using AI more doesn’t necessarily lead to productivity effect. 

But as Jake already said and is probably able to speak even more about, it’s a lot about, like, how are people using AI and in which ways? When do they use them? Do they use them before they’re thinking about doing tasks themselves or only after? So I think these would be two things that come to mind to me. 

TEEVAN: And we’ve certainly seen historically that technology, like, to your point, Rebecca, the way that it gets adopted isn’t necessarily the obvious ways, you know, as you sort of bring it into systems. Jake, I know you’ve done a lot of thinking in that space, as well, with things like social media. 

HOFMAN: Yeah, and I think, you know, in some way, you could think of this moment as AI’s like social media moment, right? 

Social media sort of was developed super rapidly. It was adopted super rapidly. It was, you know, optimized for what seemed like the obvious thing of like adoption and engagement at the time. But I think there are these, you know, side effects of sort of myopically optimizing for one thing, and, you know, we’re now decades later and we, you know, it’s hard to disentangle what happened and why, right. 

And so I think when we think about AI and we think about the risks and think about things being, you know, is this a cut-and-dry case? Is it good? Is it bad? So on and so forth, right, I think it’s important to step back and say, actually, it’s up to us in terms of what future we design with it. And the key to doing that is to not myopically focus on just the easy things, right. It’s easy for us to say, let’s get everyone to adopt and let’s boost efficiency. Let’s make everything really quick. Right? But I don’t think that that’s actually the future, like, we want to live in, where everything is just fast, fast, fast. And so it’s really important for us to realize we’re in control of this and to put in ability to measure and monitor the broader effects that these tools are having so that we can steer things to the right course, right. So I think it’s, like, a real opportunity to learn from the past and to try to do something different, to steer our future in a good direction. 

TEEVAN: Yeah, and are there specific things you’re doing in your research right now to try and get ahead of that or look to that? 

HOFMAN: Yeah, I mean, I think the biggest challenge is to say, you know, in a, look, in a lab experiment or in some very targeted field experiment, actually measuring effects on people is something you can do somewhat well. It’s a hard social science problem all the time. But now if you step back and you think about, how do we do that in, like, the products that we create as, you know, a big company at scale? I think that’s a really interesting, really hard research challenge. 

And, you know, it’s, like, it’s … the answer is going to be a combination of technical things and social things and automated telemetry and surveys and tying all these things together, and figuring out how to do this in a way that actually works for an organization making and shipping products, I think, is really, you know, really important and really challenging. 

TEEVAN: Yeah, I wonder if there’s things organizational leaders or even individuals should be doing in this space, as well. 

HOFMAN: Yeah, maybe I’ll just say one more thing on this. I think the more that leaders can emphasize that this is an important aspect of product design, the better off we will all be. Because I think short of hearing that from leaders, it’s hard for that to happen bottom up because people have so much pressure to just build things and get them out there. And so that’s one thing that I think could make a real difference. 

TEEVAN: Yeah, and some of this in some ways is, like, really building, like, complex AI literacy that isn’t just short-term focused or myopic. And, you know, in some ways, AI literacy shows up as a theme throughout the report. 

Jenna, I know that’s something that you’ve done a lot of thinking about, as well. I was wondering if you could talk to how AI literacy relates to some of the themes we’ve been talking about and, like, has impact at the individual and organizational level, particularly as things are changing so fast. 

BUTLER: Yeah. I love what Jake was saying about how, like, we need to be asking the right questions and not just looking at how fast things work and understanding how people actually use it because people’s own views of these tools impacts how they use it. And so we really want people to understand, like, all people, at a basic level what these tools are, what they’re good for, what they might not be as good for, what the pros and cons are, what the risks are. And we all are seeing this play out in various ways. 

So we saw in a study of software engineers this concept called the productivity pressure paradox. And basically, they said to us, “Hey, we were given these tools; we were told we’re going to be so productive, but we don’t know how they work and we don’t know how to be more productive with them, but our bosses are awaiting more things. So I’m just going to double down on what I already know and work even harder.” And so there was this lift where when the tool was introduced, they looked more productive, but it wasn’t because they’d actually changed how they work to take advantage of it, because they didn’t know how to do that. 

And we also know how people feel about these tools, like what they think they’ll be good at … I think everyone enjoyed the meme of asking ChatGPT how many r’s were in strawberry. And those of us who know how they work, it’s, like, it’s not really funny. Of course, it’s terrible at that, right? But if you don’t know that, then you’re not going to ask the right questions. 

And so we really want people to have sort of a basic understanding of, hey, what are the inherent biases here that I need to be aware of if I use the model? Is it going to point me down a certain path because it wants to make me feel great about myself, or should I probe it a little bit more and be like, really, is this a good idea? Like, how do I use it to make me most effective? 

And I think we need to give people a bit of time to learn that. And I think we definitely see this in organizations where the rollout has been quick and the excitement has been high, but not everyone has had the time to really learn to understand how, within their own workflow and what they do every day and the way they work, how these things can affect them and be productive for them. 

JANSSEN: Maybe actually picking up one thing that Jenna just said on this fact of how do people feel about using AI or when they’re just, like, asked to use it: I think this is also, like, a growing area of, like, research also within Microsoft but also beyond. And really important is, like, what are the psychological influences of using AI on people, on users, also, like, across different maybe age groups? What are the risks? What do we need to care about? And kind of, like, where do we need to set guardrails or similar? Because I think there are these effects, as well, and we need to be researching those similarly as we are, oh, what are the productivity effects of these things. 

There’s also one interesting finding, I think, from the report was about the social perceptions when people are using AI (opens in new tab) that users that use AI are sometimes seen, I don’t know, [as] lazy, less valuable (opens in new tab) when they’re using AI. At the same time, everyone’s like, oh yeah, but I’m also asked to use it. Or there are also maybe some trust issues around, oh, should I make it transparent that I use AI or not? So I think these areas of research are also growing in importance but also in how common they are. 

TEEVAN: Yeah, I mean, we’ve been really focused up until now … a lot of the research has been like how individuals use the tool, but what you’re sort of hinting at there, Rebecca, is, like, what it means in social contexts and in the larger system to use a tool. What’s some of the early research that has been showing up around sort of AI’s use in collaborative contexts? 

BUTLER: I mean, this is a really exciting space, right? Like, we kind of, the report, the first AI report was a lot more on individuals, and then we started looking at in the real world, and in the real world, we work with other people. And so how these tools interact and collaborate and mediate collaboration is definitely interesting. 

I think one thing we’ve seen that Rebecca alluded to is that there’s a lot of issues with perception. So one study found if the same, like, writing material was given and you said a woman used AI and wrote it or a man used AI and wrote it, the woman was judged as being less competent, even though the text was the same (opens in new tab). So some of these things that have always been around in our world, some of the biases people hold, are, like, translating into this new world of AI, and how then … how I receive work that someone else did is being impacted by that. 

And one positive we see there is it seems as AI becomes more ubiquitous and people are like, yeah, it’s a tool and it’s great, they have less judgment (opens in new tab) against others using it (opens in new tab). But right now, some people are still nervous about what do I use, what do I signal when I’m using it, and how am I going to be perceived? So even just within how humans relate to each other, we’re seeing it starting to have an impact on how they want to use it. 

TEEVAN: Yeah, it’s interesting. You know, I think the metaphor we use for AI is super interesting, and I sort of hear us playing around with different metaphors. And in some ways, you know, it’s really important that we think about AI somewhat differently in that previously, all of our interactions with a computer were deterministic, and we would, like, tell the computer exactly what we wanted it to do. And it, like, was screwing up if it couldn’t count the right number of r’s in strawberry. And that’s very different now. We have these stochastic models that we can communicate with in natural language. 

In many ways, they’re much more powerful, but they’re also not deterministic. So I think sometimes we think of human metaphors. Sometimes we call AI a collaborator. Sometimes, Jenna, as I saw you were just doing, we’re, like, thinking of AI as a tool and something we get things done [with]. 

I’d be kind of interested in, like, what the different metaphors you play around with in your research and how you think that shapes the way … either the way that your research evolves and the questions you ask or the way that people think about that. 

HOFMAN: Yeah, Jaime, I think it’s a great point. 

I mean, I think personally, and this is more just individual experience, but it leaks over into some of the research designs and things we investigate. We do have tremendous experience in dealing with, like, stochastic and not fully perfect systems in people, right? [LAUGHS] 

And so one thing that I think has been interesting to reflect on being in a research org is like we’re very used to having, you know, interns or students who have a lot of expertise but don’t always get everything right. And a lot of the time, thinking about how to interact with and investigate what that student has done is very similar to me in thinking about how to interact with and investigate what an AI tool has done. And I think it’s made for a really comfortable transition to using AI tools in a research org that I’ve seen in other contexts like in artistic or creative settings where, you know, these tools are totally, you know, sort of off limits or, you know, seen as bad or undesirable. 

And I think developing this skill of interacting with a system, like, this is going to be increasingly important. And I think it is a useful metaphor. How would you describe this to a very skilled but imperfect collaborator? 

JANSSEN: Yeah, we are actually currently writing up a paper from a study that we did last year where we gave two different trainings to two different groups, framing the AI either as a tool to collaborate with or more like a training which focused on the technical capabilities of the tool. And we actually did see that then the group who was interacting with the tool in a more collaborative way or thought of this, of the tool more collaboratively, did have a better experience but also led to different outcomes there. 

So I do think there’s a difference in how we experience and also in which mindset we approach these tools. And, yeah, I individually usually try to see it as a tool but want to, like, interact with the tool and, like, go back and forth and not maybe just like accepting the first output, but just, like, really iterating. And I think this is also something that studies and research has shown that this might be helpful for users. 

TEEVAN: Yeah. 

JANSSEN: And maybe also adding also to your question about, like, individual and collaboration, I think one aspect that we also saw that I was, I really find interesting is, like, how much more difficult it is to build tools for collaboration or like group settings than for individuals, because it brings like so many new layers to it. It’s like, oh, we need to think about social intelligence. What does the group environment is, which is, like, not there for, like, an individual use case. When do we want to use … when do we want AI maybe to step in in a group setting? How do we think about memory of the group? What is, like, some underlying, maybe emotional settings or, like, emotional context that the AI needs to be aware of. 

And it’s just, like, so much more difficult. And I think we also learn a lot about collaboration itself through this process because recently I was like, what does collaboration actually mean? Does it mean I work with someone, or does it mean I work for someone? So even finding out these nuances, I think, is really, really interesting. 

TEEVAN: Yeah, I think that’s a really good point, Rebecca, is, like, in some ways the collaborative search space is so much larger than the individual productivity search space, and we already have seen how much scale was necessary for a model just to start to learn some of the emergent underlying pieces of individual interactions with a model, that that’s a real challenge and opportunity as we start thinking larger. 

You know, Jenna, I was wondering in the software development space whether you’re seeing, especially in collaborative contexts, sort of interesting metaphors or ways that people are using AI, because that’s a place where we see super early adoption and can get good insight for future productivity tasks, as well. 

BUTLER: Yeah, we did a fun study this past summer where we looked at people who had the same context—they’re in the same team; they work in the same code; they have the same manager—but where one used it a lot and one didn’t. And we interviewed them to understand their kind of perceptions and how they viewed this. And what we found is that the people who use it more do view it more as a collaborator and less as a tool. The folks who saw it as a tool then assumed it had a purpose. So, like, you know the expression “when all you have is a hammer, everything’s a nail”? So if this is just a tool, then I got to find the nails and that’s the only place I can use it. 

But if it’s a collaborator, then if it’s not working, they would take on a position of, maybe it’s me, like I should try prompting it differently. I should give it new context. Like there’s got to be some way to get this thing to work in this context, and so I’m not going to give up. 

So we found that the people who viewed it in that way, as a collaborator, where it could get to the right answer. And we even see with the model sometimes you just have to encourage them and tell them like, “No, you can do this,” and then it’ll give you the answer. It’s really funny. [LAUGHTER] 

TEEVAN: The little model that could. 

BUTLER: And so we’ve seen––yes!––with the developers, the ones that just kind of stick with it and as Jake was saying, see it as a collaborator that can do different things, they tend to benefit from the tool a lot more and they have a broader idea of what it could potentially do and they use it in a lot more context, and so then they enjoy using it more. 

TEEVAN: So I like the, you know, I think it’s useful to think about we want to break out of the deterministic context. And so it’s useful to think of AI as a collaborator. It’s certainly aligned with our notion of, like, AI helps bring out the best in people. I wonder if this sort of slightly anthropomorphic metaphor limits our imagination in some ways, as well. AI certainly can do things that humans can’t. 

There’s, you know, it can operate at scale. All of a sudden, you can have natural language across hundreds or thousands of people easily synthesized. It operates super fast. You can generate new ideas and different perspectives very quickly. I’ve been trying to think of, like, what are the next metaphors that will help us break out of our sort of limitations of thinking about working with people? I don’t know if you all have any thoughts on that space. 

JANSSEN: Not yet! I would be interested if you have already, Jaime. [LAUGHTER] 

TEEVAN: I don’t have an answer yet. 

BUTLER: Well, Jaime, I saw your post on, like, how AI is not like a human (opens in new tab) and how considering those differences is more, can be effective or can help us break out of it. And I found that really exciting because something we’re seeing, I think, is a lot of companies and people are looking to automate something a human already does and do it faster. Like what Jake was saying, do we just want to be faster at everything? 

And that’s easy because we can observe what a human does. We’ve probably already been measuring what a human … 

TEEVAN: We can just hire more people, too. 

BUTLER: Yeah, so we can do that. But when we start to think about what can it do that humans can’t do, that’s sort of where I think we need that imagination, where we start to think, OK, this is totally different than anything I’ve done before. 

And I love space, and it makes me think a lot about space exploration. Like, it’s not like we used to go to space slowly when we didn’t have electricity and computers, right? We just didn’t go to space. [LAUGHTER] Like, you looked up there and you thought, “That would be cool someday.” And then this whole field opened when we got this new technology. 

So I do think a lot about what are not just things that I can do better, faster, or in parallel, but what could I have never done before that I can now? And I think that’s where all of the open and exciting parts come to be. I just don’t know the answer. 

TEEVAN: Oh, and I love your metaphor, Jenna, because I actually keep watching Star Trek: The Next Generation, and, like, actually talking about these different chapters that the New Future of Work Report has, it’s been amazing because, like, when I watched it during the pandemic, it was perfect because in some ways, it’s just like this really small, closed community that travels the world, you know, so it’s sort of like exploring but like being a small community and then now obviously with AI, the computer and data and all the ways, and I do think that they offer, that offers a really positive sort of view of the future. 

And, you know, as we begin to close here, I thought it might be fun for us to take a moment to really think about this moment that we’re in—how we work, how we see other people working, the research that we’re reading and doing—and think about what the ideal new future of work looks like. What are we creating, and how do you want to contribute to it? Jenna, maybe you want to kick us off? 

BUTLER: Yes, with this easy question. [LAUGHTER] 

TEEVAN: So, yeah, just solve the future of work. 

BUTLER: If we could just do that. 

HOFMAN: Softball. 

BUTLER: Yeah. Well, what’s great about it is that we can ask the question, right? Like, it’s not predetermined. The future of work is actively being built by us, by consumers. I love that. And so I do like to picture a future of work where humans are flourishing with AI and where humans still get to do meaningful work. 

So one of the workstreams we have in the [New] Future of Work is on meaningful work, and we know that when people do work that they feel connected to, societies function better and people are happier. And so I don’t want a future where we replace work with agents. I really want a future where AI allows humans to thrive more, to still be front and center, and to be doing things that change the world. So I’d be very excited for AI doctors working alongside humans to maybe cure cancer. You know, that’d be excellent. That was my first crack. I didn’t succeed when I tried, so maybe now we can. 

But that’s kind of the future where it’s both economically valuable, but it’s also meaningful for humans in the world. And that’s the future that I’m hoping that we’re painting with our reports and with our research. 

 TEEVAN: Thanks. Jake? 

HOFMAN: Yeah, yeah, Jenna, I think, like, a huge plus one to the human flourishing aspect. And I think sort of in a way that this is, like, the broadest and best interpretation of Microsoft’s, like, mission statement, to empower everyone to achieve more, right. I don’t think it means, like, write more documents and check off more tasks. I don’t think that’s the version we should be going for. I think it means, do more of the stuff you’re passionate about and less of the stuff that you’re not, so that, like, the future of work is that it doesn’t feel like “real work.” It doesn’t feel like the slog, and you get to do the stuff that you’re, like, flowing and enjoying, and time flies by because you’re just loving what you’re doing. 

And I think that’s the future we want. I don’t think it’s going to happen by accident if we just work on the more faster sort of thing, and so I really hope that the work and research that we all do can contribute to that version of the future because I think we’d all be much happier in it. 

JANSSEN: Yeah, I think the two of you have already said this really beautifully, and I say just, like, plus one to that. 

I also see, like, the … I would love the new future of work to be a future where AI makes the human parts of work more visible but also more valued, and a future where humans are able to bring in their creativity or explore new ways of creativity, bring in their human judgment, guide directions, setting like intentions. I think this would be really great. And yes, the two of you have already said like humans or seeing humans flourishing and feeling that their work is meaningful. I think it’s just, like, great. 

TEEVAN: Great, good. And then finally, to wrap things up, I’ve got a couple of lightning questions. They’re quick questions, quick answers, but they’re actually quite hard questions. So just share what’s top of mind for you. Don’t worry about it. I’ll ask them and then, like, Rebecca, we’ll start with you, then Jenna, then Jake, just so, Jake, you’ve got it easiest. We’re giving you a few seconds to think about things. [LAUGHS] 

HOFMAN: What they said. [LAUGHS] 

TEEVAN: But, yes, just what’s top of mind for you. 

What’s one misconception about AI at work that you wish you could retire today? 

JANSSEN: The more you use AI, the more productive you are. 

BUTLER: I think that’s similar to mine, which is that if you give someone these tools, they’ll all be 10x more productive because the tool itself is good. There’s so many other factors— how they perceive it, how others perceive it, how it fits into their workflow. It’s not just giving people an amazing tool that’s going to change productivity. 

 HOFMAN: And mine is just to pull up, I think what both Rebecca and Jenna have already said earlier, which is, like, it’s not all good and it’s not all bad. And how we design and use it really matters. That’s up to us and we can steer it to be better or worse. 

TEEVAN: Great. Question No. 1. Now we’re on Question No. 2. What’s one finding from the report that you hope becomes widely understood? 

JANSSEN: I think we keep benchmarking against the past. So what can AI do, or can AI do what we already do? And I think this is, like, a mistake or maybe only the first step and the more important step comes next. Like, what can AI do or help us with that we can’t do yet? 

BUTLER: For me, as the editor, I have snuck the same slide into the report for the last three years, and that is Erik Brynjolfsson (opens in new tab)‘s diagram of the space of innovation. And the idea there is just that the opportunities for augmenting humans are far greater than for replacing or automating them (opens in new tab) and that there’s more opportunity, more tasks, more economic opportunity in that bigger space. 

HOFMAN: I love that and totally agree. And I’ll just point to one of my favorite slides in the deck, which is on, like, the future of computer science education. And I think, you know, there’s this thought of, like, you know, the dawn of AI is the end of computer science education, or people needing to know computer science. This, I think this slide that we have in there does a great job of talking about how it’s actually just a redefinition of what we mean by computer science and pulling things to a higher level of abstraction, thinking about computational thinking, problem solving, thinking clearly and breaking things down, you know, algorithmically. And I think that’s a great shift and I’m excited to embrace it. 

TEEVAN: Awesome. Third and final question, and, Jake, you’re already half of … part of the way there. What is one thing you are genuinely excited to research next? 

HOFMAN: Yeah, so I can tie it into something that I’ve personally been working on, that computer science angle, and I think giving teachers the ability to control and have visibility into what their students are doing is something we have not broadly done and made accessible to people. It’s something I developed and tested for my own teaching this year and have also worked with a bunch of academic collaborators on randomized controlled trials with. And I think just the sooner we can get that into every teacher’s hands so that they are not just subject to whatever their students are doing with whatever tools, the better we can correct what’s going on. So I am very excited to work on that going forward. 

JANSSEN: Yeah, I would say we have spent, or we as a community, both like in companies, but also academia, have spent a lot of time now on what AI can automate. But I would be excited and love to learn more about what people want AI to maybe help them with and kind of like leading to, going back to the question of like, what does the new future of work, the ideal new future of work, look like for like the human workers and the individuals? And learning more about these impacts and guiding in these directions. 

BUTLER: Oh, for me, I think in the software world, we are seeing that since people can do so much more and they don’t have to do the boring tasks, their brains are just never getting a break and people are feeling sort of burnt out. And I’m very curious about how we can take advantage of AI and do more without running ourselves into the ground because we’re not AI, right? We’re people and we have requirements and needs. So I’m really excited to see how we can take advantage of what is uniquely AI and then what is uniquely human and help people to flourish like we talked about. 

TEEVAN: Thanks, Jenna, Jake, Rebecca. I appreciate all your time today. 

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And to our audience, thank you as well. If you want to learn more about the report and how AI is changing how people work, visit aka.ms/nfw (opens in new tab). 

And that’s it for now. Until next time. 

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