Summary

In this episode, Andy talks with Jess Baker, business psychologist and author of The Super-Helper Syndrome: A Survival Guide for Compassionate People. Jess helps leaders, project managers, and anyone who tends to take on too much work avoid burnout, preserve self-worth, and build healthier ways of helping.

The conversation digs into what “Super-Helper Syndrome” means, how over-helping can lead to exhaustion, resentment, exploitation, or harsh self-criticism, and what beliefs often drive us into that pattern. Jess shares actionable tools for setting boundaries, recognizing irrational helper beliefs, and changing our mindset, including asking “What kind of help is needed here?” to building systems that support sustainable helping.

If you’re leading projects, teams, or supporting others, these insights will help you avoid overcommitment while still being compassionate. 

Sound Bites

• “Helping others to the detriment of your own wellbeing is something many of us do without noticing.”
• “When you struggle to say no to requests for help, your relationships are lopsided. You deny your own needs.”
• “Exhaustion, resentment, exploitation and self-criticism are the four adverse impacts of super-helper syndrome.”
• “Compassion is when you decide you have to do something to alleviate someone's suffering.”
• “'What kind of help is needed here?' rather than just 'How can I help?'”
• “Your self-worth does not depend upon helping people.”
• “Healthy helping is about recognizing who, how and when you help, and having boundaries that are not porous.”

Chapters

• 00:00 Introduction
• 02:01 Start of Interview
• 02:23 What Got You Started Exploring Empathy and Compassion?
• 05:15 Cognitive Empathy vs Emotional Empathy
• 08:02 How Do You, As a Clinician, Use Empathy Without Being Overwhelmed?
• 10:07 The Four Forms of Help
• 18:52 Stakeholder Scenario: Balancing Autonomy and Dependency in Helping
• 25:01 When Did Jess Help? What Were Her Motivations?
• 31:56 It Adds Energy to Help
• 33:28 How Can I Discern If I'm Becoming a Super-Helper?
• 38:07 A Roadmap for Setting Healthy Boundaries
• 46:03 Parenting and Helping Habits
• 51:21 End of Interview
• 51:58 Andy Comments After the Interview
• 56:33 Outtakes

Learn More

You can learn more about Jess, her book, and her work at JessBaker.co.uk.

For deeper reading and related conversations, check out:

• Episode 448 with Marie-Helene Pelletier (on burnout and resilience)
• Episode 385 with Vanessa Patrick (about her book The Power of Saying No)
• Episode 26 with Dr. Ed Schein (MIT Fellow, Helping: How to Offer, Give, and Receive Help)

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Just go to 5BestResources.PeopleAndProjectsPodcast.com to grab your copy. I’d love to help you get your PMP this year!

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Thank you for joining me for this episode of The People and Projects Podcast!

Talent Triangle: Power Skills

Topics: Leadership, Project Management, Empathy, Boundaries, Wellbeing, Helping Others, Self-Compassion, Impact of Beliefs, Burnout Prevention, Communication

The following music was used for this episode:

Music: The Fantastical Ferret by Tim Kulig
License (CC BY 4.0): https://filmmusic.io/standard-license

Music: Tropical Vibe by WinnieTheMoog
License (CC BY 4.0): https://filmmusic.io/standard-license

Download audio: https://traffic.libsyn.com/secure/peopleandprojectspodcast/477-JessBaker.mp3?dest-id=107017

Julie Zhuo is the former VP and Head of Design at Facebook (now Meta), author of the bestselling book The Making of a Manager, and co-founder of Sundial, an AI-powered data analysis company. Also, my first-ever podcast guest over 3 years ago!

In our conversation, we discuss:

1. The three core manager skills that translate directly to managing AI agents

2. How her team uses AI to learn new skills 10x faster

3. The “diagnose with data, treat with design” framework for balancing gut and data

4. Why hypergrowth AI companies have terrible data infrastructure (and why it doesn’t matter)

5. How to give feedback that actually lands—including Julie’s exact script for difficult conversations

6. What Julie’s teaching her kids about an AI future (hint: it’s not coding or STEM)

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Brought to you by:

Mercury — The art of simplified finances

DX — The developer intelligence platform designed by leading researchers

PostHog—How developers build successful products

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Transcript: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/from-managing-people-to-managing-ai-julie-zhuo

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My biggest takeaways (for paid newsletter subscribers): https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/i/172723725/my-biggest-takeaways-from-this-conversation

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Where to find Julie Zhuo:

• X: https://x.com/joulee

• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/julie-zhuo/

• Website: https://www.juliezhuo.com/

• Newsletter: https://lg.substack.com/

• Sundial: https://sundial.so/

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Where to find Lenny:

• Newsletter: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com

• X: https://twitter.com/lennysan

• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/lennyrachitsky/

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In this episode, we cover:

(00:00) Welcome back, Julie!

(05:18) The success of The Making of a Manager

(08:41) Why AI will make everyone a manager

(11:38) The future of management roles

(14:00) Empowering teams with AI

(21:30) Specific roles being accelerated by AI

(26:53) Data analysis in AI companies

(32:02) The role of data in design

(37:21) The evolving role of managers in the AI era

(40:22) Embracing change and uncertainty

(42:14) Timeless lessons for managers

(49:03) Balancing strengths and weaknesses

(57:49) Building a feedback culture

(01:05:33) Creating win-win situations

(01:09:27) Being aware of your own energy and conviction

(01:12:12) Navigating disagreements with higher-ups

(01:15:57) AI corner

(01:20:08) Contrarian corner

(01:23:14) Lightning round and final thoughts

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Referenced:

• Julie Zhuo on accelerating your career, impostor syndrome, writing, building product sense, using intuition vs. data, hiring designers, and moving into management: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/episode-2-julie-zhuo

• Waymo: https://waymo.com/

• How we restructured Airtable’s entire org for AI | Howie Liu (co-founder and CEO): https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/how-we-restructured-airtables-entire-org-for-ai

• Cursor: https://cursor.com/

• The rise of Cursor: The $300M ARR AI tool that engineers can’t stop using | Michael Truell (co-founder and CEO): https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/the-rise-of-cursor-michael-truell

• Inside ChatGPT: The fastest growing product in history | Nick Turley (Head of ChatGPT at OpenAI): https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/inside-chatgpt-nick-turley

• Behind the founder: Marc Benioff: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/behind-the-founder-marc-benioff

• OpenAI’s CPO on how AI changes must-have skills, moats, coding, startup playbooks, more | Kevin Weil (CPO at OpenAI, ex-Instagram, Twitter): https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/kevin-weil-open-ai

• Anthropic’s CPO on what comes next | Mike Krieger (co-founder of Instagram): https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/anthropics-cpo-heres-what-comes-next

• The Magic Loop: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/the-magic-loop

• Dunning-Kruger effect: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect

• Eric Antonow on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/antonow/

• Methaphone: https://methaphone.com/

• Replit: https://replit.com/

• “Baby” by Justin Bieber on Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/track/6epn3r7S14KUqlReYr77hA

• Kingdom Rush: https://www.kingdomrush.com/

• Dr. Becky on TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@drbeckyatgoodinside

• Emily Oster on TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@profemilyoster

• La La Land on Netflix: https://www.netflix.com/title/80095365

• Granola: https://www.granola.ai/

• Matic robots: https://maticrobots.com/

• Limitless pendant: https://www.limitless.ai/

• How I AI: https://www.youtube.com/@howiaipodcast

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Recommended books:

• The Making of a Manager: What to Do when Everyone Looks to You: https://www.amazon.com/Making-Manager-What-Everyone-Looks/dp/0525540423

• High Output Management: https://www.amazon.com/High-Output-Management-Andrew-Grove/dp/0679762884/

• Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance: An Inquiry into Values: https://www.amazon.com/Zen-Art-Motorcycle-Maintenance-Inquiry/dp/0061673730

• Conscious Business: How to Build Value Through Values: https://www.amazon.com/Conscious-Business-Build-through-Values/dp/1622032020

• Good Inside: A Practical Guide to Resilient Parenting Prioritizing Connection Over Correction: https://www.amazon.com/Good-Inside-Guide-Becoming-Parent/dp/0063159481/

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Production and marketing by https://penname.co/. For inquiries about sponsoring the podcast, email podcast@lennyrachitsky.com.

Lenny may be an investor in the companies discussed.

To hear more, visit www.lennysnewsletter.com



Download audio: https://api.substack.com/feed/podcast/172723725/a4a0c3a74c5037a4bb66d242aeb72ff7.mp3

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